Sweet! ^_^ I had stuff about Jagar Tharn, Divayth Fyr, and Celedaen. And how Dragon Priests may be kinda similar to Lich's. It's a random papery articley thing though.

Well, post it! I look forward to reading it. Divayth Fyr was always a pimp, 4000 years old, rocking Daedric armor and best friends with the last Dwemer in existence... Boss!

Undisputedly Mannimarco's most feared servant, the Lich has always stricken terror into the hearts of the bravest warriors. They seem to come in all shapes and sizes, and even play a role in Tamrielic history quite often. Heck, even M'aiq the Liar knows a thing or two about Lich's.

Before we can deduce who is a Lich, we must investigate how one becomes a Lich. It is told in a journal by Celedaen the Necromancer, that you must transfer your life force to a vessel. In Celedaen's case it was an hourglass called the Sands of Resolve. If the vessel is removed from the future Lich during Transcendence, the future Lich dies. It appears that the state of Lichdom is attained when your soul is successfully transferred.

Knowing how Lichdom is acheived, we can now speculate who in Tamrielic history, is a Lich. The most obvious candidate that comes to mind is Jagar Tharn. In Arena, in order to kill Jagar Tharn, the hero "snatched the Jewel of Fire, a jewel that held Tharn's power and the whole energy of the Staff of Chaos. " As a result, Tharn is defeated. The Jewel of Fire holds Tharn's power [soul] , and is obviously his vessel.

It's also possible that Divayth Fyr is a lich. In Morrowind, he is the oldest living character and is between one thousand and four thousand years old. It is unknown what his vessel could possibly be, but being a Telvanni using "age prolonging magic" it would not be entirely surprising if he was a Lich. The Telvanni also summon Bonewalkers and various Daedra as minions, and is probably not culturally frowned upon to become a Lich.

So what would a Lich in Skyrim look like?
I believe that they will be excruicatingly similar to Dragon Priests. Dragon Priests may very well be a new type of Lich. "Dragon Priests are high level bosses found near Word Walls. In life they were skilled Nordic mages who worshipped the Dragons, and even in death, they continue their service, guarding the Word Walls that would facilitate the learning of Dragon shouts. They mostly depend on magic in battle, and can summon Frost Atronachs . Their undead form disintegrates after death." They may not have been created with the same intentions as Lich's, but if the Dragon Priests are soul bound to the word walls they guard, then logically they have attained the state of Lichdom. Also like previously seen Lich's, they can conjur minions, and rely on magic during battle.

Mannimarco is so cool.

Well written Ash! A clear correlation between vessels that contain their souls has been made to the Lich. We cannot always determine a lich or potential lich visually because the games don't always represent them as such. Divayth Fyr being a lich is a theory, but I don't see concrete proof yet. The telvanni were always way different in almost every respect from the rest of Morrowind. They lived in hollowed out plants that they grew magically! (Better than what Ald'Ruhn was I guess), anyways I will look into Divayth Fyr some more. It's possible he is working with the Dwemer friend and he knows a trick to stay alive. Possibly Divayths intensive research into Corpus disease has helped him find a key to immortality.

Do it up! And yeah, I never like running around Skar. Too many bridges, and too many guards on them.

Wow, the thread really exploded while I was at the movies! Anyways, as promised, here's my Dreugh information and theories.

What we know:
Dreugh are aquatic creatures commonly found in the Abecean Sea, Iliac Bay, Inner Sea, as well as in many lakes and rivers. -The Elder Scrolls wiki(http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Dreugh)

Iliac Bay Dreughs
Dreugh were first seen in Daggerfall. They appeared as grayish humanoids with numerous tentacles and spiny protrusions extending from their back. They also have a pair of spikes jutting from their shoulder, possibly to protect the vital neck area.


Vvardenfell Dreughs
In Morrowind, the basic shape of the Dreugh hasn't changed much, but the coloration and details certainly has. Dreughs now appear as a vrab-red in color. Also very noticeably absent are the spider-like protrusions and neck-spikes. Their shells or carapaces Another thing we notice is that they now have "Warlords." This will be important in the "Speculation" section.


Land Dreugh(Billies)
The land Dreugh truly could be counted as the strangest thing to walk Cyrodiil. They walk upon four spider or crab-like legs and have an additional two claws or "legs" on their shoulders(reminescent of the Iliac Bay Dreugh, though their color is like the Vvardenfell Dreugh). They also possess an electrical attack.

Once during their lifetime, dreugh undergo a transformation known as
karvinasim. For one year, Dreugh are able to live on land. Once the term
comes to completion they return to the water and meff, or consume the
organs needed for terrestrial life. They vomit out this material in the
form of little balls called grom. Sightings of Dreugh in inland water
sources such as Koal Cave and other grottos are probably due to the creature migrating during their land dwelling state.
- -The Elder Scrolls wiki(http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Dreugh)


What can we Speculate?
The very first thing we can safely speculate is that some, if not all Dreugh's are intelligent.
Yes, it seems far-fetched, but once the facts are examined, it quickly becomes clear. Dreughs in Morrowind have "Dreugh Warlords" which, while looking no different then other Dreughs, are significantly tougher. The Dreugh Warlords are obviously leaders of the Dreugh. They also appear to be capable of using weapons and fighting in large groups(Notice that the further out you go to sea, the more Dreugh will attack you). Finally, when the Akavari invaded Cyrodiil through oblivion in the year 1st Era, year 2703, Vivec grew angry at them for trespassing and made an alliance with the "Trident-Kings of the Dreugh." Not only do the Dreugh have leaders, they can make alliances!

With intelligence, civilization is possible. But what kind of civilization would a Dreugh have? Obviously they have no fire, being aquatic creatures. All of their weapon would have to be stone or coral since refined metals would not exist to them. It would seem likely that Dreughs wouldn't have cities in the traditional sense, since creating buildings underwater would be difficult to say the least. But it is possible that they are able to make temporary shelter.

With what?

Dreugh Wax of course! All Dreughs secrete this wax over their shells. Although it is not known how fast this wax is produced, it is still possible for a group of Dreugh to combine their efforts to make small shelters alongside coral or rock formations.

I imagine that Dreughs live a tribal and nomadic existence, following schools of fish and other large sea creatures from water to water, setting up temporary shelters to store food, weapons and children. Regular Dreugh would be bound to a Warlord and particularly powerful warlords would eventually become or be declared "Trident-Kings." Furthermore, a tribal existence may explain the difference between Vvardenfell and Iliac Bay Dreugh. Having been seperated from each other for many generations, the two tribes have slowly followed divergent paths.

The land Dreugh is the missing link between the two. It is easy to seen that it has features of both the Iliac Bay Dreugh and the Vvardenfell Dreugh. But why would a creature perfectly suited to water need to go onto land for a year?

For expierence of course. Land Dreugh are there to keep up on events in the surface world so that the Warlords and Kings can make decisions and alliances. It is unfortunate then that so many Dreugh die while on land, as it seems that something about the surface world drives them mad, causing them to attack all that they see.

Dreughs in Skyrim
The icy waters of the north are sure to include Dreugh. After all, this is the fastest way to travel from the Iliac bay to the seas around Vvardefell. I speculate that Dreughs located this far north would have some sort of adaptions to survive these freezing temperatures.
In the artic waters, staying warm is important. Northern Dreughs would likely have a thick layer of blubber or fat to protect themselves from the cold. They may also have to eat far more to maintain this amount of fat. Of course, with the exra fat comes extra buoyancy and slower speed. Northern Dreughs would need a way to compensate, and a set of jets like those of a squids would do wonders for it's mobility. Finally, it's color would most likely be dull gray, to blend in with the frigid waters.

A Final Theory
Dreugh are the elusive Falmer or Sea Elves.
No I have no evidence or proof. Just the idea

No, dreughs would not have blubber. They are like crustaceans and crabs and lobsters do not need or can physically have blubber on their bodies, even in cold water. Good post, I am skeptical about this civilization idea because wolves have pack leaders, but they do not have civilizations.
Vivec became a Tribunal God. Maybe he did not make a traditional pact by speaking to them but more of a Bosmer "control creature" type of magic. He is powerful enough I would say. I am going to look into the Dreugh more so I can add to this. Good Job Algerin!

I personally think that the land-dwelling part of their life is just a means of migration, so that they can occupy bodies of water not connected to their current home. If they didn't have land dreughs, we'd never see dreughs so thoroughly spread across the world.

EDIT: Also, didn't they attack everything they saw while they were underwater as well, not just when they were on land?

That's okay if you guys have different opinions, that;s what this thread is for, discussion.

I still stand by the idea that Dreugh are intelligent to at least some degree. Afterall, aren't goblins and Daedra also intelligent? They may not be as smart as men or mer, but they are obviously smarter then simple animals.

Furthermore, if Vivec had simply used CHIM on the Dreugh, I believed the wording would have been different. The word alliance implies that Vivec and the Trident-kings were working together, not that the whole show was being run by Vivec.

The land dreugh could also be a migratory stage, something I rather foolishly didn't consider. Nice catch though=)

Also Nightblade, do you know how Crabs and Octopi/Squid stay warm in cold waters? I'm using those two animals as the basis of my research for the Dreugh and I'd like to edit my post to match any changes.

Biologically, I have two theories. One based on official lore, the other is based on observation and biological traits. Then I found some interesting Lore on Dreugh.

First Biological Theory:
”An underwater creature with no outstanding abilities or attributes. Ancient half-human, half-octopus, sea monsters commonly hunted for their skin (to make armor) and Dreugh Wax from their shells (for its magical properties).” –UESP

This statement states that the Dreugh are biologically a Cephalopod Mollusc of the order Octopoda. The Dreugh would have a locomotion in their water form similar to an octopus. They move about by crawling or swimming. Their main means of slow travel is crawling, with some swimming. Jet propulsion is their fastest means of locomotion, followed by swimming and walking.
Octopuses are highly intelligent, more so than other invertebrates. They show remarkable problem-solving characteristics and in experiments with biologists show that they can store short-term and long-term memory. However it seems that the learning is completely independent from their parents or others around. Dreughs on the other hand are half human and may have inherited a very important skill in learning; the ability to teach. Teaching is not uniquely human, but we do it in nature better than any other animal. If Dreughs are half human, the teaching and social structure traits could have been passed on to create a society that not only works together but can improve themselves over time.
The improvements can give rise to kingdoms as they not only better themselves, but they adapt to conquer others. The human side amplified the already formidable part of the Dreugh.
I believe dreughs would be able to eject thick black ink clouds in water to protect themselves, but I have no proof. Dreughs have excellent vision and tactile sensation. They used these senses to detect prey and predators (if any natural predators exist). Dreughs are most definitely predatory.



Second Biological Theory:
Dreughs are most similar in biology to Malacostraca class crustaceans. This class includes lobsters and crabs. The name Malacostraca comes from the Greek roots μαλακός (malakós, meaning "soft") and ὄστρακον (óstrakon, meaning "shell"). The name is misleading, since the shell is only soft immediately after moulting, and is usually hard.¹
What is for sure is that they are arthropods, meaning they have exoskeletons, segmented bodies and jointed appendages. Another critical anatomical difference is that arthropods have open circulatory systems, Cephalopods have closed circulatory systems more akin to a humans. The open circulatory system is a system in which fluid (called hemolymph) in a cavity called the hemocoel bathes the organs directly with oxygen and nutrients and there is no distinction between blood and interstitial fluid; this combined fluid is called hemolymph or haemolymph. Muscular movements by the animal during locomotion can facilitate hemolymph movement, but diverting flow from one area to another is limited. When the heart relaxes, blood is drawn back toward the heart through open-ended pores¹



More Lore:

Many a sailor and fishermen will tell of a strange creature commonly found lurking off the coasts of the Ascadian Isles, the Dreugh. Little is known about this fascinating underwater creature, and much of the information we have is based on myth, and may or may not be reliable. Due to the large numbers of their population it is inevitable that travelers will encounter these strange, fascinating, and dangerous creatures. Although not enough information exists to create a definitive guide on dreugh, a source of general information would be most helpful to any travelers in the area.
Dreugh are an aquatic creature commonly found in the Abecean Sea, the Illiac Bay, the Inner Sea, as well as in many lakes and rivers. These scavengers are crablike in appearance, having a hard exoskeleton and claws. Depending on the variety, dreugh may have anywhere from four to eight upper limbs, and their color may vary from pale green to maroon, the cause of these variations is unknown. Dreugh swim through the use of heavily muscled rear tentacles, which may also vary in number and size.
Once during their lifetimes dreugh undergo a fascinating transformation known as karvinasim: For one year, dreugh are able to live on land. Once the term comes to completion they return to the water and meff, or consume the organs needed for terrestrial life. They vomit out this material in the form of little balls called grom. Sightings of Dreugh in inland water sources such as Koal cave and other grottoes are probably due to the creatures migrating there during their land dwelling state.
Explorers brave enough and strong enough to kill a dreugh will find that a waxy substance can be scrapped from the creatures shell. Dreugh wax is very valuable, and has the properties of fortifying strength, restoring strength, draining luck, and draining willpower. It is commonly mixed with ash yams to create a potion of fortify strength. Dreugh skin can also be used as armor.
Most other information on dreugh is subject to legend or speculation. Biologists have had a difficult time classifying this creature, and the nature of their relation to other creatures and races is unclear, if any relation exists at all. Some scholars believe they are a cursed race, others a simple, albeit dangerous, sea monster.
According to legend, dreugh are the remnants of a once proud civilization that flourished prior to the first era in the present day Illiac Bay. Temple propaganda claims that the dreugh were responsible for changing the sex of the Netchiman’s wife who bore Vivec so that she could give birth to him/her as an egg. The temple also claims that the dreugh were once led by a form of the daedric prince Molag Bal called the Ruddy Man. After mating with Molag Bal Vivec released a shell of Ruddy Man into the world, which caused great commotion when worn by a Velothi child. Vivec returned the shell of Ruddy Man to the dreugh, who vowed never to allow it to return to the surface world. In return for sparing Ruddy Man's life, Vivec forced the dreugh to give up their skin as armor. After ten years though, the Ruddy Man appeared again, this time worn by a shaman of the house of troubles. After slaying the monster Vivec gave the shell to the mystics of the number room, who used the shell to divine many things which are still being deciphered to this day. ¹²


In conclusion, I admit I was wrong and the dreugh do seem to be capable of forming some extent of societal structure. I have read somewhere that they form colonies. They seem to have at some point in time had a kingdom and ruled the world even! They had a King and Queen and the royalty had wardens as well. Since that time, the kingdom has weakened and been suppressed after the several confrontations with Vivec. The dreugh are also referred to as the “altmer of the sea”. There is all this and more in the text I found here: (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:36_Lessons_of_Vivec,_Sermon_28)

Perhaps dreugh are just strange elves after all.

The Dreugh have always been interesting to me because of how strange they are. We know so little about them too. Hopefully they'll show up in Skyrim and we can learn more about them. Maybe M'aiq will have something to say about them.

Also, good find. Can we assume that all Dreugh are female? It refers to the Dreugh queen as being in a "Period of Self-incubation." Either way, we can assume that Dreugh are a matriarchal people.

in·cu·bate   [in-kyuh-beyt, ing-] Show IPA verb, -bat·ed, -bat·ing.
verb (used with object)
1.
to sit upon (eggs) for the purpose of hatching.
2.
to hatch (eggs), as by sitting upon them or by artificial heat.
3.
to maintain at a favorable temperature and in other conditions promoting development, as cultures of bacteria or prematurely born infants.
4.
to develop or produce as if by hatching; give form to: His brain was incubating schemes for raising money.


She was laying eggs and/or protecting them. From what I saw biologically in both species, there is both a male and female. So no, they are not all female in my opinion.

Ohhh, my bad. For some reason I read took that to mean self-fertilizing.

Still, isn't there some strange quirk of Octopi that causes the males to die after mating? I'll have to go look it up. If it's true then it could be possible tht the Male Dreugh also die after mating. Furthermore, if Molag Bal once had the form of a Dreugh or Dreugh-like creature, could we speculate that Dreugh were created in his image? That does raise some... Interesting questions as to the nature of Dreugh society.

Artificial creatures?

1. Yes, male octopuses do die after mating. Not immediately, but not too long after they will have served their purpose and die.

2. Molag Bal, a deadric prince, like all daedric princes is able to transmogrify into whatever shape they choose. So your statement could be true, or maybe Molag Bal decided to look like a Dreugh for a while. I don't think we can know that. I will also look into it a tad more.

^ Maybe, maybe not. Dreugh can reproduce by themselves. But Molag Bal is the Daedric Prince of Rape. If the Dreugh were created in his image, then the Dreugh Society would be one based on domination. If male dreugh do die after mating like octopi... Then the life of a male dreugh would be short, cruel and terrifying.

Alright, I think we got most of the Dreugh Lore into this. Some mod should separate all the creatures into separate threads for organization (just an idea).

What I said in my last post is of course speculation. I still think they cannot reproduce asexually though.

There is a reference to Dreugh and why they may come on land for a time in one of the first 2920 books.



Can we do giant spiders next. They really creep me out and I hate em but knowledge is power.

When I was writing up my post for Dreughs I had written a notes on my notepad, but forgot to include them. Sorry!

Here they are:

Embyrology and Development
Cephalopods do not have a distinct larval stage. The fertilised ovum initially divides to produce a disc of germinal cells at one pole, with the yolk remaining at the opposite pole. The germinal disc grows to envelop and eventually absorb the yolk, forming the embryo. The tentacles and arms first appear at the hind part of the body, where the foot would be in other molluscs, and only later migrate towards the head. Young do not pass through a larval stage, strictly speaking. They quickly learn how to hunt, using encounters with prey to refine their strategies.

Those things seem very advanced.

Okay, before I go to bed tonight I'll do a write-up on everybody's favorite...

Cliff Racers.
And the possibility that they'll appear in Skyrim.

Probably yes. I will wait for the write up.

Maybe sense Jiub drove em all out of Vvardenfell. But then again that was 200 years ago.